Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
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Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
We are hooked on JLC assembly and JLC does not stock any VR ASIC we like.
Some OEM were somehow surviving without any ASIC in this area maybe that's a dead end but could it be something for us to consider?
Just pushed some unfinished design https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/tree/master/hardware/VR_discrete could it be salvaged into anything working?
PS: somewhere on page two this threads moves to https://github.com/mck1117/vr-interface
Some OEM were somehow surviving without any ASIC in this area maybe that's a dead end but could it be something for us to consider?
Just pushed some unfinished design https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/tree/master/hardware/VR_discrete could it be salvaged into anything working?
PS: somewhere on page two this threads moves to https://github.com/mck1117/vr-interface
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
It works well in megasquirt, there is two adjustable pots by VR channel.
But maybe it works with +3.3v for safety ?
But maybe it works with +3.3v for safety ?
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
Just to keep the joke running: this board needs power LED and output LED
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
@Gepro can you make this a JLCPBC board in KiCAD?
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
The megasquirt version on Kicad ?
Lol, I really don't like Kicad, it is a pain in the ass without a mouse. But I want to give a try, and it is an occasion.
I actually have a independant VR connector, it is a good thing for testing.
I know than JBperf has a board before the MAX9926.
I actualy don't have a lot of time, and I have my MRE <3 <3
The adjustable pot isn't a option for that kind of board, with a clear signal like crank, you don't have to worry, but for cam and secondary, it is more complicated, less signal = more noise.
But on my MAX9926 board, it is the same, I had to put 10K resistor inline with the cam VR.
Lol, I really don't like Kicad, it is a pain in the ass without a mouse. But I want to give a try, and it is an occasion.
I actually have a independant VR connector, it is a good thing for testing.
I know than JBperf has a board before the MAX9926.
I actualy don't have a lot of time, and I have my MRE <3 <3
The adjustable pot isn't a option for that kind of board, with a clear signal like crank, you don't have to worry, but for cam and secondary, it is more complicated, less signal = more noise.
But on my MAX9926 board, it is the same, I had to put 10K resistor inline with the cam VR.
Re: Discrete components VR decoder
Sorry... I take a look to Kicad, and I just can't.
I can do it with easyEDA if you want.
I think that MMBT5401 can certainly replace ZTX553, I don't think 2A is usefull for VR and 150v probably better.
The LM2904DR2G can certainly replace MC34072 who is basic part. Old megasquirt used LM2904.
The only adjustable resistor is extended, I thing through hole is easier and cheaper.
EDIT :
I find this :
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=49221&hilit=lm2904
I think that the TLC2272 deserves the extended price.
I can do it with easyEDA if you want.
I think that MMBT5401 can certainly replace ZTX553, I don't think 2A is usefull for VR and 150v probably better.
The LM2904DR2G can certainly replace MC34072 who is basic part. Old megasquirt used LM2904.
The only adjustable resistor is extended, I thing through hole is easier and cheaper.
EDIT :
I find this :
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=49221&hilit=lm2904
I think that the TLC2272 deserves the extended price.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
It really has to be KiCAD to be useful for me
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
Posted in April of 2020
https://www.electronics-lab.com/convert-easyeda-files-kicad-just-one-click/
https://www.electronics-lab.com/convert-easyeda-files-kicad-just-one-click/
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
Wow ! Thanks
It isn't possible to have software VR ? I mean, a small amp for converting 0-150v into 0-3.3v and tune trigger and hysteris by software.
Maybe a standalone stm32 ?
I think it is doable for Knock sensing, with an ADC microphone.
Mck117 is right, discrete from MS3 < LM1815 < NCV < MAX992X
A lot of cars works well with basic megasquirt, but the ms3pro and microsquirt go to MAX992x.
It isn't possible to have software VR ? I mean, a small amp for converting 0-150v into 0-3.3v and tune trigger and hysteris by software.
Maybe a standalone stm32 ?
I think it is doable for Knock sensing, with an ADC microphone.
Mck117 is right, discrete from MS3 < LM1815 < NCV < MAX992X
A lot of cars works well with basic megasquirt, but the ms3pro and microsquirt go to MAX992x.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
This forum thread is dedicated to the attempt to make something with zero firmware.
https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1682 has an attempt for software VR, we are all waiting for more information to become public.
Jared is saying that stm32 could be at least generating reference threshold voltage via DAC I assume RPM-based?
But again, this forum thread is dedicated to the attempt to make something with zero firmware.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder
I don't think this is the thread with no firmware. The proposed solution using an STM32's DAC to move the threshold around technically has no firmware in the actual signal path - but has firmware that's also sniffing the signal and sliding the threshold around on the side.AndreyB wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:56 pmThis forum thread is dedicated to the attempt to make something with zero firmware.
https://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1682 has an attempt for software VR, we are all waiting for more information to become public.
Jared is saying that stm32 could be at least generating reference threshold voltage via DAC I assume RPM-based?
But again, this forum thread is dedicated to the attempt to make something with zero firmware.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
rusEFI STM32's DAC solution is out of scope in this thread. This specific thread is to discuss if a useable solution with VR decoding completely external to rusEFI is possible.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
Would dedicated STM32 that is independent of rusEFI firmware an OK solution, or does that also cross the no firmware solution? AKA dedicated chip, instead of integrated solution.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
it would NOT be OK for this "Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code" thread.
It would be OK for a separate "Dedicated STM32 that is independent of rusEFI firmware VR" thread.
My goal is to focus this thread only on one of the four possible approaches, my preference is not to discuss alternative approaches within the same thread.
For general chatting/quick brainstorming I find Slack more efficient we have a relevant room at https://app.slack.com/client/T4NJHQ8QZ/CF4AKRUF6/details/pins
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
I give a try, in basic part, with a board that I can install instead of my MAX9926 board.
I go for through hole trimmer, so they aren't in the BOM for JLC, everything else is okay.
I go with MCP6002, I abolutely not sure about it... Some say it works well, and it is basic.
Here is the price, it's for 5 SMT boards, and I have 5€ more for postage. But I have a 9$ coupon.
PS : I go with autoroute, it works, so I let it for now.
I go for through hole trimmer, so they aren't in the BOM for JLC, everything else is okay.
I go with MCP6002, I abolutely not sure about it... Some say it works well, and it is basic.
Here is the price, it's for 5 SMT boards, and I have 5€ more for postage. But I have a 9$ coupon.
PS : I go with autoroute, it works, so I let it for now.
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- Schematic_Discrete_2020-11-30_23-24-18.pdf
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- PCB_Discrete_2020-11-30_23-24-56.png (12.44 KiB) Viewed 30283 times
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- Discrete.zip
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
Do you have a simulation for this? I'm not fully following how parts of it work. I'm concerned that it would be weak against common mode noise. Can it be adjusted to use the opamp as a differential input?
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
I never see that simulations are possible, that's crazy !!!
I will take a look
I don't know for differential input, on megasquirt you only have the positive of the signal, and there is noise !
I will take a look
I don't know for differential input, on megasquirt you only have the positive of the signal, and there is noise !
Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
I tested the simulation with LTspice, it is a bit difficult to find the components from jlc-smt, so I use a universal OPamp, I think the MCP6002 will act the same.
Here it is : The tests are with 50K and 200K on the mosfet, the 200K allows 100mV detection, so a lot of noise. 50K looks fine for mid RPM range.
I think that's possible to adjust the "zero crossing setpoint" by putting a 10K resistor, and tunes it with duty cycle by RPM.
A lot of aftermarket do this.
But for now, a variable pot is fine.
I will add filtering and design a PCB an other day
Here it is : The tests are with 50K and 200K on the mosfet, the 200K allows 100mV detection, so a lot of noise. 50K looks fine for mid RPM range.
I think that's possible to adjust the "zero crossing setpoint" by putting a 10K resistor, and tunes it with duty cycle by RPM.
A lot of aftermarket do this.
But for now, a variable pot is fine.
I will add filtering and design a PCB an other day
Last edited by Gepro on Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
Pictures can be uploaded to the rusefi forum. You do not need the external service to host the pictures.
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
Thanks I realise after lol, the habit from Slack I wanted to upload the asc files, but I had to zip it.
I want to try the OP07 from texas instrument, I don't succeed in using it in LTspice because of lack of inputs, there is internal offset tuning, and it is a basic part !
I want to try the OP07 from texas instrument, I don't succeed in using it in LTspice because of lack of inputs, there is internal offset tuning, and it is a basic part !
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- Discrete.zip
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
Here is a more advanced board. I go with OP07 and a LM393.
The price is for 5 boards with components, pretty good, the price of 5 MAX9924 chips. (that is only single channel)
I think I will order 5 and try it. I have some troubles with MAX9926 on my single tooth cam. The board uses the same pins than jbperf and speeduino boards, same I have.
Thanks, (more particulary to Matt who helped me a lot ! )
PS : there is a new LTspice file in the zip.
The price is for 5 boards with components, pretty good, the price of 5 MAX9924 chips. (that is only single channel)
I think I will order 5 and try it. I have some troubles with MAX9926 on my single tooth cam. The board uses the same pins than jbperf and speeduino boards, same I have.
Thanks, (more particulary to Matt who helped me a lot ! )
PS : there is a new LTspice file in the zip.
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- Schematic_Discrete_2020-12-06_03-03-22.pdf
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- Discrete.zip
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- PCB_Discrete_2020-12-06_01-50-49.png (10.64 KiB) Viewed 30081 times
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
One step back - what explicit specs do we assume for a typical VR sensor while running simulations? Do we have a datasheet at all at least for one of them?
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
@andreika points at 2112-3847010
Code: Select all
Датчик положения коленвала 191.3847 предназначен для формирования электрического сигнала при изменении углового положения специального зубчатого диска, установленного на коленчатом валу двигателя.
Датчик используется в составе комплексной системы управления двигателем внутреннего сгорания с ЭСУД. Является аналогом датчиков 191.3847, 37.3847, 2112-3847010-04.
Основные технические характеристики:
Сопротивление обмотки датчика, Ом – 570 – 750
Индуктивность обмотки, мГн – 200 – 420
Минимальная амплитуда напряжения с датчика при частоте задающего диска 30 об/мин, не менее, В – 0,3
Максимальная амплитуда напряжения с датчика при частоте задающего диска 7000 об/мин, не более, В – 250
Штекерный разъем соответствует соединителю 12052648 фирмы Packard Electric Габаритные размеры, мм – 30x45x69 Масса, г – 52
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
How do you search the new wiki for content? I know there was a honeywell app note and spreadsheet that was on the old wiki, it also detailed many specs of the typical VR sensor. I used to search the old forum for "300V VR" but that does not work any more. How do I find it on the new wiki?
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
This is where it used to be, see the history on this page, it has a honeywell app note, spreadsheet, and many details about VR's.
https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Trigger&oldid=2806#VR_lower_level_details.2C_formulas.2C_app_notes.2C_etc
https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Trigger&oldid=2806#VR_lower_level_details.2C_formulas.2C_app_notes.2C_etc
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
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Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
I finally receive the little boards
But it isn't a success
I made a wrong wiring with capacitors before resistors in input, TV5 before 10K resistors and 0.00V threshold.
Actually, the crank signal looks fine, but my one tooth cam is really noisy, I had to change a 10M resistor before the comparator by a 100K, and It isn't perfect... but it works! (my cam signal is 4V signal at 500RPM )
Here is a picture with default board : The engine don't even start.
And with 100K instead of 10M : I can't do a lot of tests for now, but the idle was stable.
I will order a second revision of the board with external control, or resistor. Because not all VR signals are the same.
Here is a preview :
But it isn't a success
I made a wrong wiring with capacitors before resistors in input, TV5 before 10K resistors and 0.00V threshold.
Actually, the crank signal looks fine, but my one tooth cam is really noisy, I had to change a 10M resistor before the comparator by a 100K, and It isn't perfect... but it works! (my cam signal is 4V signal at 500RPM )
Here is a picture with default board : The engine don't even start.
And with 100K instead of 10M : I can't do a lot of tests for now, but the idle was stable.
I will order a second revision of the board with external control, or resistor. Because not all VR signals are the same.
Here is a preview :
Re: Discrete components VR decoder with zero firmware code
Here is the "V2" board, it is a 20x28mm board, with equivalent pinout to jbperf/speeduino board and 2 additional pins for PWM control.
Updated schematic
Price for 5 boards without delivery
I will order 5 boards, and give you feedback.
Updated schematic
Price for 5 boards without delivery
I will order 5 boards, and give you feedback.
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- V2.zip
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- Schematic_Discrete_2021-01-01_21-08-24.pdf
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