[rusEfi] red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
But even with not eBay coils I have crank signal disappearing if coils are hooked up
Here you can compare second line signal with both coils disconnected VS one coil connected.
Here you can compare second line signal with both coils disconnected VS one coil connected.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
hm. shall I try cranking my oldrusty rover without a coil attached?
do you think it's just affecting the usb connection, or the whole thing?
do you think it's just affecting the usb connection, or the whole thing?
Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
one more thing, I've heard that installing a large capacitor across the coil's power lines help (although I don't understand why it should help)
Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Yeah, it's likely a huge inrush, causing the GND voltage to spike. The huge cap on the supply simply provides allot of HF energy locally, so you don't have that energy on the MCU GND.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
After 24 hours of head banging I've noticed that cranking RPM without coils was 480 RPM. 480 RPM is not the right cranking RPM of my car, it should be 240 RPM...
Now I am thinking that there were multiple issues introduced at different points in time - loss of GND during the catastrophic event, bad replacement coil was not helping and on top of that wrongly "refactored" VVT or trigger code has messed up engine cycle
Test mule now starts reliably on MRE 0.3 - if 2019 Xmas firmware is used AND there is a jumper cable between engine block and battery.
Also note how on this picture VVT fronts are inverted comparing with 2019-10-21_rpm_1102_Frankenso_MAX9926_5K_pull_ups.png in first post of this thread.
I will go have some cognac.
Now I am thinking that there were multiple issues introduced at different points in time - loss of GND during the catastrophic event, bad replacement coil was not helping and on top of that wrongly "refactored" VVT or trigger code has messed up engine cycle
Test mule now starts reliably on MRE 0.3 - if 2019 Xmas firmware is used AND there is a jumper cable between engine block and battery.
Also note how on this picture VVT fronts are inverted comparing with 2019-10-21_rpm_1102_Frankenso_MAX9926_5K_pull_ups.png in first post of this thread.
I will go have some cognac.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
NB2 miata has MAF as primary load sensor, but it also has "EGR boost sensor". Could this EGR boost sensor be used as load sensor?
Looks like there is a solenoid between this EGR boost sensor and intake? Not sure.
See also https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=590218
PS: and second question: stock MAF reports +12 analog voltage does it? What would be a good voltage divider value to convert it into 5v signal?
Looks like there is a solenoid between this EGR boost sensor and intake? Not sure.
See also https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=590218
PS: and second question: stock MAF reports +12 analog voltage does it? What would be a good voltage divider value to convert it into 5v signal?
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
The NB2 does have a "boost sensor". NB1 has it as well, as far as I know. I don't remember how the air-side of this sensor is connected though.
If I understand correctly, It is used to ensure that the EGR solenoid is opening correctly and exhaust gas makes it into the intake. The assumption is that when the EGR valve opens we get an increase in MAP. So, in theory, this sensor is a pressure sensor and should cover at least a good part of the operating range of the engine. I do remember somebody who wanted to put an aftermarket ECU in his car, but couldn't use any additional sensors due to class restrictions, planning to use that sensor as an ECU MAP sensor. I don't think we ever had any published result.
Suggestion: Run the engine at different loads and measure the signal. If it's a simple voltage signal, it shouldn't take too long.
If I understand correctly, It is used to ensure that the EGR solenoid is opening correctly and exhaust gas makes it into the intake. The assumption is that when the EGR valve opens we get an increase in MAP. So, in theory, this sensor is a pressure sensor and should cover at least a good part of the operating range of the engine. I do remember somebody who wanted to put an aftermarket ECU in his car, but couldn't use any additional sensors due to class restrictions, planning to use that sensor as an ECU MAP sensor. I don't think we ever had any published result.
Suggestion: Run the engine at different loads and measure the signal. If it's a simple voltage signal, it shouldn't take too long.
Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
My undersanding is the same.
I believe the "EGR boost sensors" is ultimately a simple pressure sensor, that most likely limits out at 1 bar (atmosphere).
It should be reading the manifold pressure like any other MAP sensor. It just isn't used as the primary load sensor with the stock controller.
I believe the "EGR boost sensors" is ultimately a simple pressure sensor, that most likely limits out at 1 bar (atmosphere).
It should be reading the manifold pressure like any other MAP sensor. It just isn't used as the primary load sensor with the stock controller.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Latest firmware, Frankenso hardware.
set engine_type 47
Battery coefficient 8.80 looks to match DMM better but maybe it affects MAP calibration negatively? Probably good enough for this test.
Looks like no TPS signal, no idea why but should make no difference for this test?
Cold engine
Logic analyzer shows pretty broken trigger signal while cranking. That's with a jumper cable between VVT solenoid on top of the engine and battery negative terminal in the trunk.
set engine_type 47
Battery coefficient 8.80 looks to match DMM better but maybe it affects MAP calibration negatively? Probably good enough for this test.
Looks like no TPS signal, no idea why but should make no difference for this test?
Cold engine
Logic analyzer shows pretty broken trigger signal while cranking. That's with a jumper cable between VVT solenoid on top of the engine and battery negative terminal in the trunk.
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- Frankeno_20200410_164410.jpg (637 KiB) Viewed 49095 times
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- 2020_apr10_cranking_TunerStudioDebugPackage.zip
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- 2020_apr10_cranking.zip
- logic analyzer data
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
For comparison here is microRusEfi crank line - more or less same signal drama?
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Just a recap:
we were suspending "ground issues" for some time. Things are really bad without a jumper cable from VVT valve to battery, and somewhat better with the jumper cable.
I've just added a proper ground strap from OEM body point to non-OEM engine point (OEM engine is hard to reach). I now have three grounds between engine and body - jumper cable, original strap, extra strap.
Can we please look somewhere else now?...
we were suspending "ground issues" for some time. Things are really bad without a jumper cable from VVT valve to battery, and somewhat better with the jumper cable.
I've just added a proper ground strap from OEM body point to non-OEM engine point (OEM engine is hard to reach). I now have three grounds between engine and body - jumper cable, original strap, extra strap.
Can we please look somewhere else now?...
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Frankenso uses 4.99K pull-ups and MRE probably uses a 1.5K pull-up
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
It may be a voltage issue. NB Miatas have a weird signal-inversion behavior during cranking, especially when cranking more slowly. Cranking drops the voltage and that may cause some funkiness with the sensor. Try a bigger/newer battery? If one is not at hand, run separate power for the sensors (12V wall-wart should do) and use the battery to just crank.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Battery is few months old but I suspect I could have a drain. I am very very close to installing a kill switch next to the battery.
Rigol has started to pay for itself: VVT PWM noise is very visible on this not running engine with pretty much discharged battery. Now I need to plug battery charger extension cord in and give it a couple of hours.
At the moment VVT uses FSIO aux PWM generation and that thing does not turn itself off with stopped engine. VVT will be unplugged for now.
Rigol has started to pay for itself: VVT PWM noise is very visible on this not running engine with pretty much discharged battery. Now I need to plug battery charger extension cord in and give it a couple of hours.
At the moment VVT uses FSIO aux PWM generation and that thing does not turn itself off with stopped engine. VVT will be unplugged for now.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Some composite logs gathered so far
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Super long adapter harness may be adding enough inductance to be a problem.
Adding a shortish (2') alligator clip from Frankenso ground to intake reduces spike from VVT turn on/off by an order of magnitude. (down to ~0.5v peak-to-peak)
To be continued.
Adding a shortish (2') alligator clip from Frankenso ground to intake reduces spike from VVT turn on/off by an order of magnitude. (down to ~0.5v peak-to-peak)
To be continued.
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- VVT_running_14ft_aligator_wire_between_engine_and_ECU.png (52.15 KiB) Viewed 48975 times
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- VVT_running_4ft_aligator_wire_between_engine_and_ECU.png (50.85 KiB) Viewed 48975 times
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- VVT_running_2ft_aligator_wire_between_engine_and_ECU.png (90.6 KiB) Viewed 48975 times
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- miata_2003_ecu_GND_goes_to_intake_close_to_TB.jpg (513.27 KiB) Viewed 48975 times
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Things have improved from "nearly impossible to start" into "starting is reliably poor", only 8 out of 21 attempts were successful
Two things have helped:
1) Both crank and cam sensors of this NB2 should be considered VR for software decoding and we shall rely only on rising fronts. Still Hall-style hardware decoding with pull-up resistors.
2) my tune was not using idle solenoid due to a configuration mistake. this is now improved under https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/1332
Still look for better starting obviously. Tune, sensor and composite logs attached.
Two things have helped:
1) Both crank and cam sensors of this NB2 should be considered VR for software decoding and we shall rely only on rising fronts. Still Hall-style hardware decoding with pull-up resistors.
2) my tune was not using idle solenoid due to a configuration mistake. this is now improved under https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/1332
Still look for better starting obviously. Tune, sensor and composite logs attached.
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- NB2 kind of starts sometimes TunerStudioDebugPackage.zip
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
As an experiment we've switched to CAM sensor only. With attached tune I can start every time! Minor improvements to idle air were made.
So it looks like crank+vvt trigger decoding is part of my starting issue.
So it looks like crank+vvt trigger decoding is part of my starting issue.
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- NB2 running on cam sensor only TunerStudioDebugPackage.zip
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- NB2 running on cam sensor only 2020-04-20_23.36.32.mlg.zip
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
For referencing purposes so that nothng get lost, here is the MAF transfer tab for 94+ miata. I'll run it but just to monitor flow, nothing more.
Cheers
Gwendal
Cheers
Gwendal
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
the way rusEfi was handing NB2 special symmetrical crank was one of the reasons of unreliable cranking experience on this car. https://github.com/rusefi/rusefi/issues/1278 code change has addressed this issue.
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- VVT miata trying to crank with random phase fixed TunerStudioDebugPackage.zip
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- VVT miata trying to crank with random phase fixed DataLogs.zip
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Thank you, this is now part of NB2 default tune.Crazy Striker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:42 pmFor referencing purposes so that nothng get lost, here is the MAF transfer tab for 94+ miata. I'll run it but just to monitor flow, nothing more.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
A very quick run with speed density fuel and MAF recording
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Is https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=486064 the source of this data? This looks like NA miata.Crazy Striker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:42 pmFor referencing purposes so that nothng get lost, here is the MAF transfer tab for 94+ miata.
NA and NB MAF sensors seem to be different at least in terms of IAT sensor internal vs external. No idea if same transfer function or not.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Just double-checked that OEM ECU has 1K between pins 4X "MAF" and 4O "Sensor GND" yet the MAF function we find on the internet does not produce reasonable readings for rusEFI Frankenso with a 1K pull-down.
As a work-around I took a known 0280218004 MAF sensor - that one needs both +5v and +12v supply but at least output is voltage without any pull-down magic. And the car is running!
Next step would be to guesstimate Miata NB MAF based on 0280218004 data. One of the logs show 0280218004 voltage in "oil pressure" column while running on MAP, the other one shows running on 0280218004.
As a work-around I took a known 0280218004 MAF sensor - that one needs both +5v and +12v supply but at least output is voltage without any pull-down magic. And the car is running!
Next step would be to guesstimate Miata NB MAF based on 0280218004 data. One of the logs show 0280218004 voltage in "oil pressure" column while running on MAP, the other one shows running on 0280218004.
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- DataLogs_0280218004.zip
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- Bosch_0280218004_MAF_function.xlsx
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Another day and fresh drama to chase!
TunerStudio via TTL disconnects on engine start, with two different HW setups:
1) MRE72+MRE+Bluetooth HC-06 @ 38K
2) Frankenso+Prolific USB-to-Serial, hard-wired, at 115K
Frankenso log & comms log attached.
TunerStudio via TTL disconnects on engine start, with two different HW setups:
1) MRE72+MRE+Bluetooth HC-06 @ 38K
2) Frankenso+Prolific USB-to-Serial, hard-wired, at 115K
Frankenso log & comms log attached.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Digital multi-meter shows 1K pull-down on MAF signal line inside OEM ECU and a 5.5K resistance to +5v? Shipping OEM 279721-1201 PCB to @mck1117 for him to do some poking.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Looking at this schematics I was hoping to see either 2O or 2M wires but not both in my harness? My car has both wires on the "2" ECU plug. I was really hoping 2O would be a pin available for rusEFI purposes
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
I have a very beautiful test mule!
Took it on a very lean field trip. MAF sensor was driving, MAP was just riding along, WBO was... concurned.
Took it on a very lean field trip. MAF sensor was driving, MAP was just riding along, WBO was... concurned.
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- AndreyB
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Emil says a bypass hose would be needed to use OEM pressure sensor to run the engine.
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Re: red 2003 VVT test mule Miata NB2 #27
Ha, there is a crazy idea to actually drive that EGR solenoid since we have outputs! That would be low side pin 3D.
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