FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

[mk e]

Engine out to change the leaking head gaskets and take care of a few other things while its out.

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I'm going to wrap the headers to control the heat in the engine bay better and see where that gets me before I look at moving the coils, which is best done engine in anyway.

I'm also switching from 308 motor mounts to testarossa mounts. The 308 engine is a flat or 180 degree crank which helps in make more hp than a normal 90 degree V8 crank, but shakes a lot more so they use special motor mounts the let the engine sit on springs, but then there needs to be a torque arm and that is a problem for me as I have no place on the engine to attach it and its ugly so I don't have it, meaning it isn't actually very safe to drive the car as-is. A 12 cyl is quite smooth so the TR mount are fairy rigid rubber mounts so no torque arm needed...just need to make them fit. I guess its good to be on to problems only running cars have

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[mk e]

I wrapped the exhaust so hopefully this fixes the heat in the engine bay issue. I'm going to try hosing it down with high temp paint to control the fibers and make it look a little better.

[mk e]

If anyone following along has been wanting a V12 308 of their own this car

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http://www.exoticcarsofhouston.com/Details/X023499/1978-ferrari-308-gts
Is on the market. Just moved from the Huston dealer to an Atlanta dealer who is sorting a few little things before re-listing it. Its an older 365 engine so maybe 325-350hp?

[mk e]

Can you spot the cylinders that were running on coolant?

[mk e]

The stuff on the pistons is goo....assembly lube, running rich and such.  Carb cleaner took it right off

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On the bottom of the gasket the compression mark make it pretty that on the sides it the flame ring not gasket material trying to make the fluid seal...which clearly doesn't work, guess there was a reason the factory used an 81mm bore not 86mm...oops. Sealant on the gasket will hopefully fix this

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I did recheck the cylinder protrusion and all readings on this bank were .0015-.0030", so right were I left them.

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[mk e]

Quick update. I settled on aviation sealant to try to get the heads sealed

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Then I made some block off plates to seal it up the hole and pressure test before moving on with assemble

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With just air it still leaks about 1/2 psi/min but with coolant its at 18 hours now and no change on the pressure gauge which seems a very good result. ... so this evening reassembly will begin.  I  still need to fix the motor mounts and the shifter shaft leak before it goes back in but its cold outside and will be for a few more weeks so I'm not in a huge hurry to be out in the driveway tuning so a few more weeks work is fine I guess. 

Funny how my 2-3 week project is what, 3 weeks in? ....and still 3+ weeks from finished. 

[mk e]

running again...I think its fixed.


1400-5200 rpm, oil pres at 75-115 but pig rich...looks like I forgot to connec trthe CLT and the ECU was adding 60% more fuel thinking the temp was -20C

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TBs a little out of sync bank to bank but I guess that's expected after having everything apart

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But it looks like all 12 were on as the misfire was seeing anything and all 4 NBO2 are showing rich and the cyl MAP was doing its thing it looks like and trying to even out the lambda readings. Hopefully I too will be test driving soon.

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[mk e]

The last throttle blip is 9k rpm then it ran out of gas before I could try for 11 ...its frikin loud

[mk e]

Still fighting head gaskets so no dyno numbers yet but I was pretty happy with this result on getting it to idle



This was one of my biggest tuning fears but it seems to be working fine. Its at like 720-730 rpm in the video, original factory spec for all these engines (308, 400, TR) was 1000rpm. A buddy who works on them routine sets them to 750-800 and this easily sits below that so as good or better than stock idle using cams with 20 degree more duration (@0.050" lift), ports that flow about 70% more, and 54mm ITBs so this is much better than I'd hoped for.

Not sure how much progress I'll make toward a dyno day with winter about here....but if the head gaskets hold this time....

[mk e]

one more video. At no time in the video does the throttle go past 40% or MAP go above 65kPA, yet that is enough to provoke 1st and 2nd gear rolling burnouts ..its got some power.

[mk e]

I'll share this about cold start and idle as its maybe a little different from what you guys do and for sure the verdict is still out on whether its good or not as I still have a way to go . Also I'm not sure if the way I set up the ECU up for this is a good idea or more trouble than its worth. This is the last mostly cold start, CLT was 30C

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It cranks about 1 sec while I'm opening the throttle slowly which richens the cranking mixture (because things aren't set right yet) then cylinders start to fire but it looks like I wasn't convinced they were all on so a throttle blip at 14 sec then it settle into idle at 16 sec

What I have is 3 tables. There is the main VE table and on the left it a 300 rpm column. This cranks at 150 so that the 70% is what is used until its running I was originally planning idle at 1000 and stall saver setting at 700, I need to move those. Also I wasn't expecting the 45kPa idle or quite so linear a MAP so I have too many MAP rows up top and not enough down low. There is no limit to how many row or columns I can add to a table in this ECU but I like to be a bit strategic so I don't waste time tuning stuff that doesn't matter and need to move some stuff around and maybe remove some. But for starting it is the 1 row on the left.

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Then the Coolant correction table. I have it setup with an RPM axis but haven't messed with that yet, just temp. Its a 70C t'stat so correction at 70/80 kind of needs to be by default. I'm still roughing this in and if I mess with the VE table then this is wrong again.

Last I added a start enrich table that is like a prime and adds fuel based on revolutions and coolant temp. Again I'm just starting to rough this in because before this can be setup up right the engine has to right at whatever temperature I'm trying to start it at. Its a slow process.

I'm also using spark timing for start and then idle which kind of buggered some of my earlier startup fuel settings. Same as the VE table, cranking is the 1 column on the left. It kicks back if I go above 10 degrees but then once it starts I need to pull the timing back or I can't get the rpm below 1800 or so. I need to add of resolution around idle but right now I start pulling timing at 2000 and below and hold ot steady around idle rpm which is the only way I've ever found to get a nice steady idle like in the video I posted.

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[AndreyB]

Is this an "always" sale or a real deal?

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[mk e]

Is this an "always" sale or a real deal?

Always sale as far as I know. Also any AEM infinity will also do, which is what I did with a unit I got on ebay. You can just register the serial number and get access to the enginelab software which is what AEM used to created their products. Its kind of like what you guys started doing with your luna I think but with this everything at the logic level is built using that tool so when you load enginelab you wipe the AEM model and need to create your own so everything I post is something I created, they call it the "model" which looks like this and everything here I added

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Down at the bottom in a gray section are the low level items like the AN pins...I can call them and use them in the model but they can't really be edited.

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So I can mostly make it do whatever I want without actually knowing how to program very well.

[AndreyB]

Yep, Infinity Series 7 30-7101

And somehow the market does not seem to care about this Too few people need that level of control I guess.

[mk e]

Yep, Infinity Series 7 30-7101

And somehow the market does not seem to care about this Too few people need that level of control I guess.

Its too hard for most people I think because you start with nothing. There was talk about a library anybody could pull from but its just never happened so everybody starts with nothing and their sales are mainly though AEM.

[mk e]

Yep, Infinity Series 7 30-7101

And somehow the market does not seem to care about this Too few people need that level of control I guess.

So Holley bought AEM and it looks like they are dumping some slow movers...like the infinity 358 for $356.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/aem_efi/parts/30-7114?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Google+Shopping+-+AEM+Electronics+-+Non-Brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=7848552874&hsa_cam=17242278644&hsa_grp=139174297880&hsa_ad=597446716969&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=pla-1654336976060&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjwiOCgBhAgEiwAjv5whBmTqGDf06eWJVHjMuscbC2646jzi1OEuaxorkFWABq0zrAQn3HXIxoC-RwQAvD_BwE

The Infinity 358 (PN 30-7114) is designed to control 2V and 4V Ford Modular engines, late-model Dodge Hemi engines and other late-model, individual direct-drive "dumb" coil V8 engines with port injection using 8 high impedance injectors.

Its loaded with firmware specific to a few engines but the 3 series HW is all the same - 8 fuel, 8 spark, 9 analog in, 3 AN Temp, 2 knock, CAN and you can load the enginelab FW and set it up to do whatever.....unless they are shutting down the ECU business and bought it for the EV stuff

[AndreyB]

Yep, an amazing deal!

[mk e]

An amazing deal that it appears to mean AEM is out of the ECU business as all the other part numbers show as unavailable anyplace that used to sell them. It doesn't appear to impact stuff like the wideband controllers, CAN support stuff, or the new line of EV controllers

Not sure if that means EngineLab is also existing the ECU space and I need to find a new favorite. The website appears to accept orders...sent an email so waiting to hear.

[mk e]

Just discovered Bosch bought MoTeC last summer but unlike AEM/Holley it seems to be business as usual over there.

I also saw they are selling the M1 series ecu as VCUs into the EV space or at least that's what it looks like.

[mk e]

I think I finally have this stupid thing working right. Idle is decent (the little puff of smoke is now fixed)
[media]https://youtube.com/shorts/I5ZZsmLp5aQ?feature=share[/media]

The last few days I've been playing with cold start and that seems pretty good


Just driving its pretty good, like a normal car


and the 9k rev limiter seems to work better than than the new 195 wide 200tw super sticky tires
[media]https://youtube.com/shorts/F7cemj3oyik?feature=share[/media]

Pretty near time for a new project.

[mk e]

Kind of final on the engine bits and everything fitting together

[AndreyB]

As in "DONE"?!

[mk e]

As in "DONE"?!

I think the engine is. Still playing with tuning and a few little ECU bugs that I'd like to fix but don't really need to, then I think maybe some more tweaks to the suspension which is also tuning I guess....I just added 42% anti-dive to the front suspension so it brakes a lot flatter now. Little things. Just shy of 17 years and my son who was 6 months old when I started now thinks he's going to kick my butt at the autocross (I bought a used 2022 Supra he drives). Oh, I might paint it, that a decently big project but not for a year or 2. It drive good now though and is just stupid fast.

[mk e]

I got all my documents in order and went for a real drive tonihgt


Tonight was the first REAL drive and now sitting here drink in hand, I'm honestly not sure how I could be any happy with the result...other than idle its not even tuned yet, all the numbers in the fuel table are guesses based on what Dynomation thought the air flow would be....which means the hp&torque estimates can't be very far off I'd think.

It's a touch loud for my taste but that is all I've got in the minus column at the moment (other than 17 year of my life). Out on the road everything I loved about my first 308 drive came rushing back.....the smooth acceleration and and higher rpm roar of a naturally aspirated engine in particular. The blower I added made the car quick and that was wonderful but it came at the expense of the sound. The sound is back, and so is the well mannered normal driving, I miss the power steering but other than that I'm not sure how it gets better. When I first drove this car (I bought it site unseen) I pulled over than called my father who though the purchase was a terrible idea to say "everyone should experience this at least once in there lives"....I felt the same way today....you think a stock 308 is a joy to drive?, stop by for a ride

[kb1gtt]

I'm honestly not sure how I could be any happy with the result...other than idle....

Idle what's that used for

How many houses has this cost you? I recall it got angry with you and tried to burn the house down. Has it been crafty in attacking you in other ways? How many arms do you have?

It's been a wild ride for sure. Very cool to see it coming to a point of completion were it can get out and stretch it's legs. Let's see if the blacksmith can take the prancing horse for a ride and not get bucked off.

[mk e]

I have oil leaks and plenty of little issues to keep me busy for some time but I feel pretty good about this:
[media]https://youtube.com/shorts/cB2uETAwpsc[/media]

These are BIG TBs for the engine with pretty big cams so getting it to idle requires pulling out spark timing. I was using the main table but the better I got it running the high rpm I had to pull timing from and was up to the 2000rpm column. That was making it kind of surgy coming off idle and harder to pull away from a stop smoothly. What I have now is an idle timing table, just 1D timing v CLT that is used below 2% throttle pedal when engine state is idle so cranking gets the normal spark settings to help it start nice. Then 2%-5% throttle pedal I interpolate idle timing to normal timing to make a pseudo 4D timing table to try and avoid the surge table switching can cause...it seems to work pretty well but I need to get it out on the road and do more driving to make sure.

I took one of my racing buddies for a ride last Saturday and I think I broke his brain. We did a mix of hard pulls and cruising and cruising he kept looking over at the tach and finally commented along the lines of "nothing that pulls that hard to that high an rpm has any business cruising this nice at 2k rpm, my pickup isn't this smooth or pulls this nice at 2k, I just don't understand how this is possible". Friday I let my 17 year old who had a total of 5 minutes time driving a stick drive it. He did practiced stalling it at the stop sign a bit and is pretty good at that (hopefully I've fixed that) but other than that the drive went well. It seems to just work.

I did just add a couple of the cheap 14point7 WB controllers because I wasn't trusting how I setup the onboard controllers..and confirmed that the bank1 reading was about right but bank 2 was reading lean even though they have the same code But now I have numbers I can trust so tuning should go easier. A little public service message , the calibration voltages the controller outputs are very helpful, but spreadsheet 14point7 publishes for helping calibrate the analog output only works right at 14.7AFR. If you plug in 14.1 for E10 or in my case 1 because I use lambda not AFR, the calibration numbers are gibberish. I sent an email with the required correction so hopefully they'll fix it.

[mk e]

I didn't make a video but today I turned the key with the engine at 65F and it started and settled to idle without me touching anything, really nice!

....but it just didn't sound quite right.  Coil output 1 is not working correctly and I run waste spark so cylinders 1&6 are dead.  I do love this ECU but I'm not sure they are still actually in business and I know its not in the budget.  Its always something.

That got me to looking at rusefi Huge. but I'm honestly struggling to figure-out what is has and what it can do. There are no LS or HS outputs listed on the spec list, but I see then on the pinout. I see hall inputs list but on the pinout I also see switch inputs.

Is there someplace I can find a complete list other than staring at the pinout?

Are things that are listed on the pinout, MAP input or fuel put output fixed to that pin?

Can the 2 DBW outputs be bridged?

I have some custom output, where would I look to figure out what can be done with lua?

is the crimping kit a connector and pins or is that included and the kit is a crimper?

I've only sort of followed along and quick searches aren't delivering answers to what seem like basic questions. I'm not loving the idea of buying a motec because I just hate that company, but I know for enough money I can make it work.

[mk e]

Becaasue it became clear really fast finding the rusEFI info was going to be a challenge, I started with the commercial options

I spent some time looking at the ecumaster pro16 and its pretty ok overall.  Its got a bazion I/O pins but not a lot of ways to use them that I could figure out.  The list of pre-defined outputs is fairly short and there are only 5 custom outputs which are pretty nice but its only 5 so no way to use more outputs, at least not that I saw.  Simple stuff like there is a defined channel for check engine light, but the only way I could see to use it other than to select it in a custom output.  Kind of the same in inputs, LOTS of pins available but how to use them?  Its a maybe at $2544

The haltech Nexus 5 seems quite good but more expensive .  But it allows 20 generic inputs and 20 generic outputs and can definitely do almost everything I currently do other than trim fuel from 12 MAPs, but it can read and display them.   Overall its the nicest I looked at today, but $4500 though, nearly double the price of their 8 cyl unit and the other options on the list 

The prices on the motec M150 have dropped but other than it is 12fuel/12spark its still pretty sad until you add a bunch of upgrades and they've removed the generic examples that I know were there once upon a time so there is no way to actually see if it can do what I want to do.  I think it mostly can?  I know if I add the $2400 development license i can make it do everything my enginelab could do (except log, that's another $400 for basic, $1500 for  good),  but there does not appear to be anyway to know what lesser licenses do other than a generic feature list.   But plus side it looks like if I order from Oz an M150 with the basic GPA license can be had for $2500+ shipping & connectors and from what I could see in the 1 example it will probably mostly work?

The enginelab website will take my order for a replacement, just plug it in and I'm done. $1900

There are no manuals anymore so I have to downloads the software and go through it with whatever in application help there is so its slow and maybe I just miss what I was looking for not really knowing what they call it or where it might be found.

oh and no oil puddle Friday after running Thursday, but a huge puddle today after running Friday. No idea what's up with that.

Tomorrow will be start digging on the rusefi Huge.....a HW spec sheet or current limits in the pinout would be SOOO helpful.

[mk e]

Ok, I've invested about 6 hours searching and reading and sadly I think its time for me to tap out. Its clear a ton of effort has gone in, but if I'm being honest with myself there is just no way I could get this working with the documentation available. I programmer I am not

[mk e]

The urgency to replace the ECU is gone because I got it running again, a bit of a hack but running is running

The ecu I have has 10 spark outputs, #1 is fried.  With many newer ECU it would be a non-issue as i could just pick a different output but ecu automatically assigns 1-6.  Tonight though I had all 12 cylinders running again.  The software lets me select 12 cylinder coil on plug as if there are 12 outputs because early HW did have 12...mine actually does have 12 too but the softer can't access 11&12 correctly.   But that wouldn't help anyway, output 1 is dead....but it also supports 2-stroke and allowed me to select 12 cylinder 2-stroke so now I can waste spark off any 6 driver I want. The spark is fixed

The down side is I now have 2 fuel pulses per cycle.   I still have 12 outputs so cylinder trim still works.  I set the global fuel trim to 50% but it was still pig rich and idle VE went from 50 to 35...I may put it back to 50 and mess with the global trim more.  It wasn't running great and I realized after I shut down the injection timing table at 360 on a 360 degree cycle it not right.  Also I can't set 2 cylinders to the same crank position, I can but the ECU gets confused and cuts spark.   so I set the pairs (1/6, 2/5, ect) 0.5 degree apart....I think I'll increase it a bit though as I don't know what the ECU is actually capable of and injection angle isn't all that critical so no need to find the ECUs limit.

But it runs again and I can annoy Andrey about Lua and maybe logging details until spring maybe.