[rusEfi] Clio Mk2 172 Ph1 Race Car

[jalava]

We finally got ourselves the Clio 172 we were looking for! This means project thread can begin.

Image below is from Endurance Cup race from Kemora, Finland in August 2017, as you can see those bad bimmers are really making our life hard with only 170 hp left in the engine! The race format is basically group-N type regulation track racing cars running LeMans style 6 hour races with 6 mandatory 3 minute refueling breaks during race with multiple drivers. Maximum engine power is 175hp on stock engine and engine intake and exhaust header is enforced to be stock, we can modify pistons and camshafts and ecu though.

We are currently running stock engine, stock ecu 172 and for power we are looking for regrinding few different cam shaft profiles and tuning accordingly. We are also looking for using VVT Dephaser in race application by modifying the activation point to higher rpms.

Of course, stock ecu has it's problems with remapping and Clio community isn't exactly known for using open ecus with basemaps available, most of the solutions are locked to certain tuners and because we have our own dyno in our peruse with dyno engineers and tuners in the team, we decided to look for something else.

We had few options in our shelf, bunch of MS1 boards in different states of modifications and RusEFI Frankenso 0.4 board. Because our previous cars have been using MS1, this was our initial goal, but after looking into the modifications required, I was not very keen on working on it.
I was also looking for going for Link G4+ Monsoon, which we might still do if we get sponsorship for it from somewhere, but for now, RusEFI it is.

Because board is already configured with CRK as VR and CAM as Hall, i think I should be almost just wire in this to the harness and it should startup with minor working it out. Triggerwheel is 60-2 VR, camsensor is TDC Hall.

Still trying to work out from documentation how should I wire TPS as F4R wiring harness uses dedicated ground (separate even from sensor ground) and voltages for TPS in addition to signal, and frankenso pinout just has one pin for TPS. And also I need to figure out the range of IAT and ECT sensors (or maybe we just force fan on all the time and disregard compensation maps, IAT doesn't change that much overall on NA car, EGT should stay stable on the track). I also need to figure out how tacho works on clio and if RusEFI can output tacho signal to dashboard.

Any ideas that might help me working this out with little pain as possible?
Current documentation is bit fragmented so all guidance is welcome!

[jalava]

Some collected images for safekeeping.

Some of this stuff we are not going to be using but for example because we cannot modify the original loom I need to figure out if UCH/Immobilizer requires any comms from ECU or if it is just one way street. Looks like in stock immobilizer provides the voltage to injectors and is managed by ECU grounding main relay (pin 39). The in 58 is the Engine Immobilizer pin, which looks to be from UCH to ECU only, I hope there is no two way communiucations.

[kb1gtt]

Your so kind when you call our documentation fragmented. When you do this you imply we have documentation. Unfortunately our documentation is in a poor state, and often this kind of information is non-existing.

Any how, I think you are asking how to get your car running with rusEFI Frankenso R0.4 board. I would suggest as a first step, you get cam and crank displaying an RPM on the console. Are you hacking your harness, or are you using an adapter to connect the ECU to the engine? You mention many different items in one post. I'm tempted to get you to focus on one item at a time. It's hard for use who don't see it to tackle many items which we can not see. Can we get the CAM and CRANK pulses showing on the console?

[jalava]

Your so kind when you call our documentation fragmented

As a startup founder myself, I know it can be hectic at times. MS1/Extra documentation isn´t always stellar either

I would suggest as a first step, you get cam and crank displaying an RPM on the console. Are you hacking your harness, or are you using an adapter to connect the ECU to the engine? You mention many different items in one post. I'm tempted to get you to focus on one item at a time.Can we get the CAM and CRANK pulses showing on the console?

Good idea, I'll start with that, those should be quite easy to do.

Our race regulation requires stock harness and sensors but adapter is allowed. Also stock ECU is in the engine bay, so I have acquired stock ecu 90pin connector and I'm wiring a extension adapter into the cockpit as soon as I get my wire from supplier.

I will start wiring in this order
- +12V Supply
- Power Grounds
- CRANK pins 24, 54 on ecu
- CAM (looking at the pinout again, I don´t have CAM sensor at all, is this a problem?)

Let's see where we get. After triggering looks good I think I will do some outputs like injectors and sparks

About VVT, this is a on/off type system with pin drawing about 1.6A of current. Should I use relay or can I use direct pin?

[AndreyB]

We have the same e30/e36 BMW problem in Lemons

[kb1gtt]

Is that low side drive? You can probably use a low side injector driver. So far we haven't had any thermal shut downs, but there is a chance that it could cause extra heat which could cause a shut down. However so far no reported problems, so it would probably be OK.

@ will need to answer about the CAM signal.

[AndreyB]

Sbecause we cannot modify the original loom I need to figure out if UCH/Immobilizer requires any comms from ECU or if it is just one way street. Looks like in stock immobilizer provides the voltage to injectors and is managed by ECU grounding main relay (pin 39). The in 58 is the Engine Immobilizer pin, which looks to be from UCH to ECU only, I hope there is no two way communiucations.

this could get nasty

No cam signal is fine, weird that this car has individual wiring like if it has cam. anyway we have batch injection mode with two outputs working in sync so you should be fine

stepper IAC is not the most exciting one but should work. probably not your biggest issue at the moment. for TPS ground can you just wire it into the common GND on Frankenso?

As Jared say - first step is to power things up and get tachometer while cranking.

[kb1gtt]

Thanks @ for the reminder about the TPS GND signal. There are several possible ways to GND things, and you would likely be successful with GND'ing the TPS in several locations. However I would think that you could get good success if you GND as noted below. I know your using an OEM harness, but you can likely follow the below suggestions in your extension harness. Here's the general GND guide for the Frankenso GND pins.
-- GND --> goes to battery, and contains all the ECU's ground currents. Best to avoid frame GND, and if possible route this away for other GND current loops.
-- GND output --> is GND for the high/low side drives. The theory is that if the ECU is providing power to a device, it should come back on this pin.
-- GND CPU --> is GND for digital signals like switches, CANbus, or other digital signal.
-- GND input --> is GND for analog signals. You may need to make a Y harness, such that you can twist this GND with each of your analog signals.

I would say TPS GND's and all analog GND's would be best going to the input GND pin. You can use tiny wire for this, as there is almost no current which flows through this. Also if you can, twist this with your analog wires. Such that your signal wire is twisted with the GND wire, that is a good thing. In the case of TPS you also twist the 5V wire with it. If you have multiple analog signals, try to attach multiple wires to this pin as close to the ECU as possible. If you are not using one of the other near by ground pins, as an alternative to making a Y junction in your harness, you can attach to that for a second or perhaps 3rd GND pin. The goal is to split the heavy currents or digital currents from the slow analog signals.

tps_GND.png

Your battery GND would be best going to the straight up GND. This should be a big fat wire, that does not got to frame, but to battery directly. This will carry all your injector currents, and all ECU currents, so the fatter you can get it the better.

battery_GND.PNG

[jalava]

Thanks for the ground wiring information!

I'm bit rusty at reading schematics but slowly getting there.

What about spark, F4R / Sirius 34 seems to use ground switching to Sagem Igniter with two banks. Image on Frankenso page seems to refer to older version about configuring the hi/low output.
I understood that P604, P605, P606, P607 controls pairs of hi/low outputs, but how do I set these ground switching? Just no jumper resistor at all? Also do they config outputs like P604 HL1&2 , 605 HL3&4 etc?

I'm attaching image of my Frankenso bottom board as originally configured by @russian when I ordered it, couldn't find any intro about configuring the outputs anywhere, so maybe someone could tell me how this is configured and which are the common configuration points on this.
How I see it, CRK is configured Hall, CAM is configured VR, HL1-4 are 5V, HL5-8 are ground switching, am I correct?

frankenso_config.jpg

Also including image of my wiring plan up till now.

wiring_plan.jpg

[kb1gtt]

Blah just lost a post as the forum just made me re-login. Any how, here is again.

Caution about ignition. The schematic noted above shows the coils being direct drive by the ECU. The coils primary side will need to spike to around 350V to 450V-ish. The Frankenso does not allow for this, and you will need an igniter between the Frankenso and the coil. We have had success with a couple different igniters. I would suggest considering the J701, either that or if you need it to mounted inside the ECU, you could try the igniter board we have developed.

See this page for a J701 reference schematic. Take note this would be driven with a normal injector driver, and does not require the hi/lo driver. With some experimentation we could perhaps use the hi/lo without that resistor. Or you could wire it as shown in that schematic. Let me know if you want to try wiring it slightly differently than what is shown there.
https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware#J701_NEON_engine_schematics

Here's a link to a forum thread about igniters. Notice the igniter board was once installed on the proto area. I get concerned with this approach, as these igniters typically make lots of heat. I would much prefer to see these connected to a heat sink. Also remember that the primary will need around +450V insulation. If you use the Frankenso connector, you may need to use some spray electrical tape to get good insulation on the solder terminals.
https://rusefi.com//forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=286

There may be some reference schematics found at the below. The tools are blah, so they are probably not very useful. However a Pizza box schematic could be helpful.
https://sourceforge.net/p/daecu/code/HEAD/tree/Hardware/trunk/rusefi.com/frankenstein/system_schematics/

[AndreyB]

but how do I set these ground switching? Just no jumper resistor at all?

Best not to use these as ground switching - better to use low-side drivers for ground-switching, the 12 channels are beefier.

[jalava]

Good point about the ignitors, I was almost sure clio would have built-in ignitors in coil pack, but further googling about Sagem coil pack and aftermarket ecus, it seems that in stock form the Sirius 34 handles the coil charging.

We are probably swapping out to new coil pack with built-in ignitors and adaptrer connector or wire in bosch mtr 04 or similar into harness.

[kb1gtt]

If you change the coils, you can provide us with a schematic and we can offer comments if it will work and such.

[jalava]

This is one option, should could be simple to wire in: http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=121

We need to go through our junkyard first though, my friend said we have some 3-channel Bosch unit laying around somewhere in the shelf and free option is always the best option in this sport

[jalava]

I'm currently confused by TTL USB port on frankenso, plugging Mini-USB wire on it fires up COM3 on my computer but connecting to that with terminal doesn't give anything sensible log output (some randomish 5 char output is given in tunerstudio miniterminal and putty). On STM32F4 the green and red leds near mini usb are on (as is red PWR led), but also LD1 COM blinks red.

Because it also seems to power the board somewhat (display is quite dim though), I'm confused how does this USB port is wired vs two USB ports on STM32F4 itself which are clear to me (Power and reflashing vs tunerstudio / console).

[kb1gtt]

Are you attempting to power via USB or is this being powered externally? A DIM LCD might indicate the USB is not providing enough power. Is the LCD bright when powered normally?

Have you updated the VCP drivers? See link found here.
https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:User/en#While_you_wait_for_the_box

Are you using the proper baud, parity, etc for mini-com?

[jalava]

Drivers are updated

Leds are bright regardless of configuration, when I add the micro-usb, the lcd display goes bright, but pressing reset button display goes dim again, curious.

I took the board out of the enclosure to fit the micro-usb in addition to mini-ttl and display fired up bright as day.

Doing that Com3 (via port on frankenso) still answers with same random string and com6 (via micro-usb on stm32f4) with 14648 105 1 ts_p_alive as expected.

[kb1gtt]

Does TS or the console work on this port?

[AndreyB]

Doing that Com3 (via port on frankenso) still answers with same random string

could that be wrong baud rate on the TTL port? microUSB on stm32f4 does not care for speed setting but the TTL USB on Frankenso does care. Want to try all settings?

[jalava]

I was using 115200 8N1 as it works on STM32F4, maybe it is different. I will try some other rates

[kb1gtt]

I see a baud of 38400 noted at the below wiki. I'm not sure about parity, stop bits, etc.
https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:TunerStudio_connectivity

[AndreyB]

I was using 115200 8N1 as it works on STM32F4, maybe it is different. I will try some other rates

STM32F4 does not care of baud, it would have worked on 666. For TTL on Frankenso you need to set the right value.

[jalava]

I see a baud of 38400 noted at the below wiki. I'm not sure about parity, stop bits, etc.
https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Software:TunerStudio_connectivity

You are correct, with 38400 I can connect with putty and received
14648 105 1 ts_p_alive

And TunerStudio also works of course now!

[kb1gtt]

That's good news and glad to hear you got it working. Sounds like good progress.

[jalava]

Took my time to separate wires required for adapter from rest of them, next labeling and soldering to the loom end connector and I should be ready for first test cranks

3b7b8a1e-f982-4d0e-a7e2-d13b01ac63f5.jpg

Still need to find my depinning tool as on my pigtail 3X is not connected and LOW-1A-10 is only free low driver left for tacho output, though I'm bit unsure how stock tacho is wired as I see it wired on pins 70 (TDC Engine Speed)and 11 (Undocumented). I have hunch this might be high driver and 11 is ground point for that, that pin is not used for anything else. EDIT: Removed text about pin 11, that seems to wire to fuel flow pin on instrument panel.

Not having the garage and car right next to me, makes my job slightly difficult as I cannot just hop into garage to measure stuff

[jalava]

Question about tacho, I need to pulse +12v 2 times per revolution, do I just wire it into high side pin and configure it from tunerstudio?

[AndreyB]

Sounds like yes.

[jalava]

So question about fly-back diodes. When do I need them and which part should I use / acquire?

I know I need one for VVT, unless I put dioded relay or fly-back in between, but what about rest? Injectors (high impedance), main and fuel relays (I think these can spike when released on shutdown)

Just got my spool of tefzel wire and some new pins and connectors, almost ready to get the proper adapter started

[kb1gtt]

The flyback diodes typically are slow to decay your inductive energy surge and they release your injector (or what have you) in less precise fashion. As well the diode will dissipate some heat, but most of the heat is absorbed by what ever inductor you are using. So if the circuit is a fuel injector, the injector would deliver a less accurate amount of fuel, and would get a hotter. As well these diodes prevent the MOSFET from seeing the voltage spike which is caused by inductive energy. So this diode can be installed on a voltage protected MOSFET like what we use on the Frankenso.

The Frankenso low side drivers commonly used for fuel injectors, are voltage protected MOSFET's. This means the inductive spike is clamped to a voltage. To do this the MOSFET turns itself on slightly as they reach the voltage clamp. This allows for a more precise and faster turn off time. However because the work is done by the MOSFET it also means the MOSFET gets hotter and not the injector.

So for things like injectors, you typically want precise cold injectors. So you want no flyback diodes. However for things like alternator, VVT, or perhaps other devices, they commonly want slow reactions. Fast for these can cause control issues. As well they can handle the heat they need to absorb, so might as well keep the heat out of the MOSFET. If the MOSFET overheats, it will shutdown, and you probably don't want that.

[jalava]

So, I´ve seen 1N4007 around in few forum posts, schematic just shows Schottky diode so I'm just making sure of diode intended as fly-back.

I'll add flyback for VVT to start with as that is pretty slow activated and will cause current spike when released.